tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post8664532937441697974..comments2024-03-20T18:15:41.858+00:00Comments on Looting Matters: "Fully provenanced": overheard in a New York galleryDavid Gillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13164794689385933318noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-65330760450193600422008-12-04T05:19:00.000+00:002008-12-04T05:19:00.000+00:00I also went on the trip to NYC. It was suprising ...I also went on the trip to NYC. It was suprising to see so many anitquities for sale. I wonder how many of them have sufficient documented history.<BR/><BR/>At the gallery, the saleswoman did not state that the object was legal, i.e it was acquired before 1970. She stated that it had provenance but she did not stress that it satisfies the law. This is a problem because now the man may have an illegal artifact that will have to stay in the private sphere.Matthew Anayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05962562153883229020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-73421062021692906132008-11-20T16:37:00.000+00:002008-11-20T16:37:00.000+00:00As a member of Professor Marlowe's class, I was qu...As a member of Professor Marlowe's class, I was quite shocked when all of this happened,especially since I had never been to an antiquities gallery before, nor witnessed such a transaction.<BR/> <BR/>However, I think that it really points to the problem with the use of provenance as the only important word in such a dialog and some collectors' ignorance of its true meaning. Going along with Dr. Opoku's line of thinking, I would advocate adding words to the antiquities vocabulary and making such words have a very specific definition. It would be one small step in making the whole antiquities market more transparent. This this way, there wouldn't be the problem of "what passes for provenance today".<BR/><BR/>-Claudia Piacente<BR/>Colgate University <BR/>Class of 2009ckphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17041394872998181541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-28678005775267037572008-11-13T18:50:00.000+00:002008-11-13T18:50:00.000+00:00I checked "provenience" on the dictionar...I checked "provenience" on the dictionary aggregator OneLook.com and the first five dictionaries did not distinguish between "provenience" and "provenance".<BR/>http://onelook.com/?w=provenience&ls=a<BR/><BR/>OneLook does provide a direct link to Archaeology Wordsmith which explains that provenience is the position "in time and space, recorded three-dimensionally".<BR/>http://www.archaeologywordsmith.com/lookup.php?category=&where=headword&terms=provenience<BR/><BR/>I think it's reasonable to say that if an ancient coin first appears in an auction catalog in October 2008 that the object is "provananced" back to October 2008. It's a *very weak* claim but technically correct. The salesman was lying when he (or she) claimed that the provenance was "excellent". Maybe the in-house publication will be useful in the coming decades and centuries.<BR/><BR/>Many excellent libraries, such as the American Numismatic Society, keep auction catalogs but don't participate in WorldCat.Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-60411516593077227712008-11-12T12:22:00.000+00:002008-11-12T12:22:00.000+00:00I agree about the use of the word "history". Those...I agree about the use of the word "history". Those selling antiquities need to present the documented collecting history of a piece.David Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164794689385933318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-20453575912263850442008-11-12T08:04:00.000+00:002008-11-12T08:04:00.000+00:00Just a brief comment. The cultural sections of emb...Just a brief comment. The cultural sections of embassies are not always so well organized that they could be helpful in tracing the history of any particular object which may have come from their country or may have been found there. In addition to<BR/>sending sales catalogues to embassies,<BR/>it may be useful to send a copy to the Art Department of the University in the capital of the relevant country.<BR/><BR/>It may be better to get away from "provenance" and "provenience" and stay with "history". A seller should provide a "history" of the<BR/>acquisition of the object. In other words, he or she should provide information that is sufficient for tracing the history of the object before it was acquired by the present owner. Kwame OpokuDR.KWAME OPOKUhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10807521316037049823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972497915033440413.post-42845379137827216772008-11-11T19:45:00.000+00:002008-11-11T19:45:00.000+00:00Even if in-house publications did count as "proven...Even if in-house publications did count as "provenance", by their very nature they only describe one step, the last step, in a artifact's life journey. <BR/><BR/>Ambiguities aside, "provenance" can't possibly mean "evidence that the current owner is the current owner". There's already a term for that -- proof of ownership -- widely used in real estate, insurance, car sales, etc.<BR/><BR/>At the very least, provenance has to mean "where the current owner got it from". It's still a ludicrously brittle standard, but at least it's not a the risible proposition that an object has provenance if the current owner bragged about owning it.liviushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667469212335030216noreply@blogger.com